Welcome to Episode 181! Jerry Jao is the Founder & CEO @ Retention Science, the startup that brings intelligence to your marketing automation through artificial intelligence that delivers a personalized customer experience, at scale. To date, Jerry has raised over $10m in VC funding with Retention Science from great friends of the show in Forerunner Ventures, Upfront Ventures, Clark Landry, Andy Rankin, and more fantastic names. Prior to founding Retention Science, Jerry founded two other e-Commerce marketing technologies and served as Strategic Innovation Officer to Clear Channel Radio. Jerry is also a Guest Lecturer at The Kellogg School of Management and sits on the board of Penango.
In Today’s Episode You Will Learn:
* How did Jerry make his way into the world of SaaS with the founding of his first company? What have been the top 3 mistakes that Jerry has made since founding Retention Science?
* With P&G, Unilever and Olay all as enterprise clients, how did Jerry first sell into them as a small startup? What is required to give these large enterprises confidence in buying from startups? What does the perfect case study look like to convert these mega accounts? In the early days is it a quality or quantity of logos game?
* How important is it for the founder to be really actively involved in the sales process to these mega corporations? How does Jerry divide his time now between new and existing customers, as well as team and investor management How does Jerry approach multi-year and prepaid deals with these incumbents? What is the line of reasoning for suggesting prepaid is fair?
* Retention Science have been profitable since 2018, how does Jerry look to balance the mindset of fast growth and profitability? How does Jerry think about payback period for enterprise sales reps with this profitability mindset? How does this affect his thoughts and views on internal asset allocation?
Jerry’s 60 Second SaaStr:
* A moment in Jerry’s life that has changed the way he thinks?
* When I say success in SaaS who embodies this to Jerry?
* What does Jerry know now that he wishes he had known at the beginning?
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Harry Stebbings: Welcome back to the official SaaStr podcast with me, Harry Stebbings @hstebbings1996, with two B’s, on Instagram. It would be fantastic to see you there, where you can actually suggest questions ahead of time for future interviews and have your name mentioned in the show.
However, to the show today. I’m thrilled to interview a friend and awesome entrepreneur in the form of Jerry Jao. Jerry is the founder and CEO at Retention Science, the startup that brings intelligence to your marketing automation through artificial intelligence, that delivers a personalized customer experience at scale.
To date, Jerry’s raised over 10 million in VC funding with Retention Science, from great friends of the show including Forerunner Ventures, Upfront Ventures, Clark Landry, Andy Rankin, and more fantastic names. Prior to founding Retention Science, Jerry founded two other e‑commerce marketing technologies and served as a strategic innovation officer to Clear Channel Radio.
If that wasn’t enough, Jerry is also a guest lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management and sits on the board of Penango. I do also want to give a huge hand to Jason Lemkin and Kirsten Green of Forerunner, for the interest shown today, without which this episode would not have been possible.
That’s quite enough of these dulcet British tones. Now I’m very happy to hand over to a dear friend and phenomenal founder, Jerry Jao, founder and CEO at Retention Science.
Announcer: Good. That’s perfect. I think we’re warmed up.
Harry: Jerry, it’s absolutely fantastic to have you on the show. A big hand to Jason Lemkin and Kirsten Green for the intro. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jerry.
Jerry Jao: Harry, I can’t wait, being a huge fan of your podcast so far.
Harry: That’s so kind of you. I want to kick off today with a little about you. You came into the world, and how did you make your way into the world of SaaS and come to found Retention Science?
Jerry: I’m a three‑time entrepreneur, founded two other companies, software‑related, both in the martech and loyalty space. We started Retention Science about six years ago. We are a SaaS company that essentially is a personalization engine that works with some of the world’s most innovative brands, like Proctor and Gamble, Unilever, Olay, Dollar Shave Club, you name it.
One of the things that I’m personally excited about is watching how software and AI has transformed the way we live, the way we make decisions, and the way we empower our users to live a better life.
That’s exactly what our software does to enable marketers to make better decisions, at scale, and to help them create more personalized campaigns and communications with their end customers.
Harry: My word, what a list of clients you do have there. You said up there about the founding of the company. We spoke before, and you mentioned that there are maybe three top mistakes you made since starting the company. Starting on that very positive note, tell me, my friend, what are the three top mistakes?
Jerry: [laughs] I would say I’ve made a lot of mistake, Harry. If I were to, and I will, start another company down the road, I think the three things I would focus on, the first thing, I would definitely focus on hiring more experienced operators, whether it’s on the sales side, the marketing side, or engineering front.
I’m very, very lucky that I have a co‑founder who serves as our CTO. His name is Andrew Waage. The very first day, we hired a fresh grad out of Caltech, incredibly smart mind. I think that, if we were to do again, we would still hire our team member number one.
We would also complement him and our team by hiring someone who’s just a little more experienced, maybe have scaled the team so we can move a little faster. In the early days, time is essence and it’s money, so we need to move really, really fast.
The second thing that I would have done differently probably is around the area where I would invest much, much more in design and the UI and UX of the software. I underestimated how much people are lovers of visual.
When you have a great product that the back end is really strong, you can process a lot of data. You can talk about all the machine learning capabilities and AI you have. That’s all great. At the end of the day, when you’re selling to a customer, they cannot see any of that.
All they care about is how your product looks. Does it look cool? Does it have cool visual effects? Being able to invest in some of those UI and UX design ‑‑ which is why Stanford has now their design school ‑‑ I think that’s definitely very important.
The last part I would say is invest in sales and the SDR/BDR machine early on. This is definitely something that Jason, one of our investors and one of my personal mentor, has always talked about. He certainly blogs a lot on Quora and his personal blog around the emphasis around hiring the right head of sales and having a DM engine team.
Then really build out a well‑oiled engine machine and truly understand who you are going after. At the end of the day, it is really, really hard to get to $100,000 MRR. After that, it’s almost like you have something rolling, and then you can scale that very quickly by fine‑tuning some parts of your operations.
I certainly think that investing in sales and marketing early on is absolutely critical. That’s something that I waited a little bit until I had product‑market fit. I think that’s something that you can start honing in and testing out your messaging, even before the product’s fully baked.
Harry: You gave me so much to unpack with those three. I do have to ask you, you mentioned there about hiring more experienced people, early on. I often speak to Jason, and he says, in the early days of a startup, in today’s world of incumbency and the checks that they pay their employees, you can either, as a start‑up, hire jack‑of‑all‑trades, young, enthusiastic people.
Or, there may be slightly burnt‑out 50‑year‑olds who are looking maybe for a place to sunset and plateau. I’m intrigued. Would you agree with that? How do you think about maybe attaining those more experienced individuals in this check‑heavy incumbent world?
Jerry: I think that’s a really difficult one for early stage, especially if you haven’t raised some sort of funding to prove that there’s at least smart people that will get behind your idea. Then to convince those experienced incumbents to join your team, lead your team, and take on big risks, that is a pretty tough pitch.
At the same time, I think there’s nothing wrong, like Jason said, having someone who’s really, really hungry, that wants to work directly with the CEO, the founder. Versus she or he might have to work through the ladder, and then climb up the organizational hierarchy.
Part of the beauty of being a start‑up or early‑stage company is that everyone is hustling together. Everyone is wearing multiple hats. As a result, you become a little bit more of generalist. Specifically, on a sales and marketing side, I think one of the key things, like my current head of sales is a guy named James.
He’s been with me for about five years now. I will say he’s sort of what Jason describes. Really, really hard‑working individual. He is an Iron Man outside of the office. He competes. He played baseball, and just a really, really hard‑working person.
At the same time, he wasn’t trained as a salesperson. What I did recognize early on is he’s a really smart guy. He’s incredibly charismatic and he can connect with people. He can problem‑solve. I hired him as my right‑hand man.
Over the course of a year, he’d proved himself out, closed more deals than lot of way more experienced sales people that we’ve hired. Slowly, climbed up our small team, evolving, and now is our head of sales.
Everybody comes in different shapes and sizes. Oftentimes, it’s case by case. In our scenario, it definitely is one of those cases where maybe a super‑experienced person wasn’t the right fit for us. We found a younger hustler that is incredibly bright and willing to work hard, and then made that work.
Harry: My word, charismatic and an Iron Man. I do hate people like that ‑‑ too perfect.
Harry: I do want to break into you updates, Jerry, into a couple of different segments starting on the theme of successfully selling to enterprise. Then moving to really standing out from the crowd, both thematically and geography‑wise, and then finishing on good old capital efficiency and profitability. Does that sound good?
Jerry: I love it. Profitability is my favorite topic.
Harry: It is mine, too, as VC now. I speak to hundreds of SaaS founders. A dominant challenge they always face is successfully selling into these mega‑enterprises of today as a small start‑up. You’ve done this so successfully, as we have said, P&G, Olay, Unilever. Tell me, Jerry, how did you sell into them?
Jerry: I think it started out by having successful case studies that are relevant to them. As a younger start‑up, in day one we focused on a certain industry vertical, and then building successes with them.
Having been able to work with the Honest Company, Dollar Shave Club, hair‑care product companies, really strengthens our ability to tell the stories and showcase things that we’ve done that have led to mega‑successes.
I do think it’s a very, very lengthy process to sell into enterprise companies. Even if they want to work with you, their internal procurement team or how things get vetted out, and just to get all the right stakeholders around the table to be able to say yes, oftentimes that can take three to four weeks, even if you already get an executive sponsor.
Selling enterprise, I would advise a lot of founders that it is oftentimes difficult, but then it’s a must‑have. We call that whale hunting. You have to balance with closing other smaller deals, so you can continue to have momentum and increase your MRR along the way.
No VCs, no board members will be OK with the founder or a company to simply go whale hunting for 9 to 12 months and never have to worry about increasing their sales in the interim. For us, it’s about having the right case studies, the relevant tool kit, and really showing up at the right time.
Proctor Gamble is an incredibly innovative company. At the same time, they have their inherent challenges as they continue to innovate as traditional CPG company. I think that if we had come to them more than five years ago, they would have said, “You know what? This sounds cool, but this is probably not a priority.”
Oftentimes, timing and luck plays a huge factor. One of the things I always say to my team is, “You guys, the only thing we can control is how hard we work. So we’re going to work damn hard, and then when luck is by our side and the timing is right, we will at least recognize it.”
Otherwise, if the deal is right in front of you, you won’t even capture it because you don’t work hard enough. Those are the things that I really think about when it comes to approaching a large enterprise account.
Harry: Can I ask? In terms of those large enterprise accounts, I always say to founders, “You have to be a top‑three buying consideration for the internal champion that you’re pursuing.” Would you agree with that, or is that maybe too binary?
Jerry: I absolutely agree. I don’t think binary at all. These large organizations, the buyers and the sponsors, they are so busy. It’s not because they want to be busy, but everybody’s wearing multiple hats. Within large organization, typically it’s just like everyone talks about. When you get up top, it’s really a pyramid.
There are very, very few people that can make the ultimate decisions and sign off on a contract. Oftentimes, it becomes very, very tough, from a timing perspective, just to get them to say yes. They have 50 other decisions they are trying to make, so you’ve got to be one of the top three in consideration.
Your job as a founder or CEO is to work very, very closely with your team to figure out the best pitch. These companies will appreciate that you’re showing up in their footstep while you still have to run a company.
I think this is where sometimes start‑up can win deals against large companies. We certainly have gone up against Oracle, Salesforce. Unless the account is big enough, I know in our case Larry Ellison or Marc Benioff, as amazing as they are, they weren’t showing up at the client’s meeting.
I’m there. I think it’s an indicator of commitment and it shows good faith. Sometimes they will take a leap of faith if you have enough of proof points and case studies to really show them, “Hey, this is exactly in our wheelhouse, and we can absolutely do a great job for you.”
Harry: You said that about that being that pre‑sale, and it’s really what gives them that confidence and validation in you as a company that you’re committed. I’m intrigued. Post and service side, how much time do you spend with your customers? Have there been any learnings around the importance of this, as a founder?
Jerry: I was recently at a CEO dinner with Dan Springer, who was formerly the CEO of Responses, which was acquired by Oracle for close to $2 billion. Now he’s the CEO of DocuSign, which he just took public. I literally asked him the same question.
He said that he spends about 20 percent of his time with his customers. Obviously, his company’s way bigger than mine. I use that as a benchmark. I would say I probably spend about a third of my time with existing customers, a third of my time with new sales prospects and new business development, and a third of my time with my team, maybe looping investors in that category.
In general, I’m a firm believer of really getting on the road, getting to know your customers. Your job is listening to your customer complain and filter out things that are personal or emotional versus that are concrete and very, very constructive feedback, to help you improve both on the product side as well as services side.
My job is definitely to just let our customers really vent and complain, so I can learn from them. I think that is absolutely critical to a CEO’s job.
Harry: I do have one final question on the sales to enterprise there. Obviously, one big benefit is their ability to pay multi‑year deals due to their size and scale. How do you think about that and approach that? What are your thoughts on the importance of this being pre‑paid?
Jerry: I would say, in our first three years in business, it is pretty difficult to get customers to commit to even just one year. Oftentimes, especially with bigger businesses and enterprises, if you are not necessarily a known entity to them, they will want to start you off in a pilot. They’re taking on risks in working with a company at your scale.
You slowly grow their confidence in your ability to execute, and then you lock them in on a one‑year, and then start asking for multi‑year contracts. For us, now as a much more mature company, we certainly ask for multi‑year contracts.
The way we approach that is by explaining to the customers or prospects just how much effort we’re also putting in up front to commit to making sure they’re successful. As a SaaS business, oftentimes there’s such heavy investments up front. You’re really not recuperating that cost and start generating a profit until a couple months into the engagement.
Helping your customers understand that you’re investing a lot in them up front, and therefore you will like to see them having a little bit of commitment, demonstrating some commitment to you as a business partner. They will be able to understand, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to how important your technologies or the services that you’re providing is essential to their business.
That allows you to have some negotiation leverage there. In terms of getting pre‑paid, for me, for our company, it is very important. We are a profitable company. Compared to most start‑up at our scale, we probably are one of the least funded startup. That is absolutely by design.
While I’m a big fan of our investors and the VC community, and I certainly continue to maintain dialogues with them, and we have a lot of investors who are interested in putting more capital in the business, one of the things that I do focus on is to get most of our customers to either pre‑pay or certainly biannual payment, if not annual up‑front payment.
Salesforce does it, Hubspot does it, where customers are both. Oftentimes, I think it’s incredibly important. That just give you more cash to be able to invest in, whether it’s payroll, additional research and development, or sales and marketing investments.
If you can, certainly ask for it. There’s no doubt in my mind that customers will push back and often do push back, because they also do want to have cash on‑hand. That’s something that, as a founder and CEO, you have to see what is the norm within your industry vertical.
Harry: Absolutely. I completely agree on the additional benefits of that cash flow. You mentioned the element of profitability and capital efficiency. Obviously, being a venture nerd is one of my main passions in life. Clearly, I need to get out more.
Harry: You’ve been profitable now since 2018. With that in mind, how do you look then to balance between inherent fast growth required of startups, and then also maintaining profitability? What does that mindset and balance look like?
Jerry: First of all, Harry, if you ever do get out, hit me up. Being a nerd, I probably need to get out more, too.
Jerry: I think balancing fast growth and maintaining profitability, and Jason has oftentimes said in the early days, if you’re not burning enough cash, you’re probably not growing fast enough. For us, because we’re a little bit further along, and we’ve passed that initial sort of sticker, right now, for me, it’s really understanding where are the levers that I can improve.
Then fine tune and by, whether it’s placing the right, experienced people to help us become better in what we do, to have that accelerated growth, in terms of maintaining profitability versus not necessarily having a crazy year‑over‑year growth.
I think from last year to this year, we’re still growing at about 120 percent while maintaining profitability. I think, again, it comes down to product‑market fit. If you have a good product, I think sometimes the product does help sell itself.
Obviously, we are also in a competitive category. I always say that when you build a company and build a product, really do a deep dive on your competitive landscape. Are you selling vitamins, or are you selling painkillers?
To me, those are very, very distinct services and product offering. If you’re selling vitamins, that means when times are good, people will want to buy you, because they want to maintain their health. However, I think selling painkillers is a little more important, because it’s a necessity.
If people are having a headache, they need to buy you. If people need to run their business on your product and your software, that means they need to buy you. We’re in the camp of being a painkiller. In the early days, I would say the product was more of a nice to have, so more of a vitamin.
Then as a result, we were nowhere near profitability, as well as that accelerated growth. Now, we find the right pitch, and then identify a scalable way to do that in a profitable manner. It allows me to really make decisions based on what I think is good for the business long term, versus having to meet a specific type of criteria to give VCs the kind of return that they’re looking for.
I think while I’m absolutely aligned with my investors and my board of directors, I do have a little bit of flexibility in terms of building the company in ways that I think make sense. Sometimes, I hate saying this, but there is a certain type of revenue growth and trajectory that we put on company.
Sometimes, it breaks a company, because their revenue expectations and growth expectation is not necessarily possible. You raised so much money, or because the valuation of the round is so high that I know plenty of company that end up getting stuck, and or they end up having to replace their CEO or the founder.
The revenue trajectory just didn’t end up meeting the expectations of the VC, or where the company’s value is expected. I think that’s one of the balance that I am trying to maintain, so everyone around the table is happy, and feels good about the progress that we’re making.
Harry: Tell me, though, when selling to enterprise, and thinking with that profitability mindset, the hold element’s always the sales rep payback with enterprise customers. It can take nine months for any ROI to show from that sales rep.
How do you think about this with the profitability hat on in mind, and when is that inflection point when really you’ve got to start delivering?
Jerry: I think that is a really difficult one to figure out in the first two years of the company. Essentially, as a small company, before you have the kind of capital and reserve like Salesforce and Oracle, early stage companies are really not sitting on top of too much cash.
Every dollar, you really ought to be invested in growing the business. I would say in the first two years of retention science, we’re certainly fronting a sales commission, the cost of the sales and marketing. Really, we’re not seeing enough profit, or even just the money that we’re charging.
If you look at it just from an MR perspective, no doubt, most businesses in the early days, we discount a little bit in order to onboard them. One thing to know, actually, Harry is in the history of the company, we’ve never given our product for free.
I’m a firm believer of, if you believe in your product, and you believe in the value you bring to your customers, you should never give it away for free, even to just get a case study, because they have to have skin in the game. I think that is really important.
In terms of ensuring our sales rep payback time and ramp‑up time on the customer side to ensure there is ROI, what we had to end up doing is, we’re trying to align the sales payout, commission payout schedule with the payment terms of the customer.
Sometimes, in an early stage company, it’s really, really difficult to do, especially if the founder or the CEO is managing that process. What we did in the early days is we simply pay out. For a 12‑month MR deal, we pay out the first six months at close.
Then we pay out the second six months six months into it. We’re always six months early, so that way your AEs, or your account execs, still feel incentivized, because they’re not waiting for too long to get paid.
At the same time, that does mean that, as a company, you are actually paying out commission before you collect the revenue on the book. That is a little bit difficult, because you’re having cash out, which is why earlier discussion, we talked about trying to get the customers to pay upfront as much as possible.
That allows you to have just a little more capital to work with, including paying out your account execs and commission early on.
Harry: Absolutely. We spoke about that quality reps, that often the thing I hear from people outside of the Valley, especially with enterprise, is that there’s simply a shortage. I’d love to discuss your location being in LA. What are some of the most prominent challenges of scaling a SaaS company in LA versus SF?
Jerry: I actually talked about this at one of Jason SaaStr events as well. I think that being in LA, there aren’t as many SaaS companies, compared to San Francisco. There are a growing amount, and I would say there is a few of us. We all know each other.
We know the candidate pool, as well as the talent pool, especially on the experience side at the VP level. Oftentimes, we have to look in the Bay Area to find folks that potentially are more excited about the lifestyle of what LA has to offer.
I would humble brag a little bit. We do have better weather, and the lifestyle is maybe a little more comfortable, compared to the Bay Area. It’s getting pretty crammed, and LA, geographically, it’s pretty spread out.
I think it certainly is a challenge to find salespeople with a lot of years of experience in enterprise sales. At the same time, they do exist. Then part of it, just you have to work a little bit harder. Versus if you’re in the Bay Area, you just go on your LinkedIn, and look up people who worked at Oracle, Salesforces, or Success Factors.
There’s just a lot of companies that you can hire from. I think it’s necessarily the case in LA. At the same time, it means that when you find the right folks, it really allows you to really grow with them. I think LA is very, very competitive as a job market, and also within the tech and SaaS vertical.
At the same time, I don’t think it’s necessarily as crazy as some of my friends that are running companies. The turnover rate is so high, because there’s so many opportunities up in the Bay Area, too. I think LA’s just a different market.
I appreciate what the market brings. It also allows me to have a little bit of stability that I’m seeing that SF is lacking right now. I think that’s also one of the reasons that allows us to grow steadily, being profitable, and being very, very competitive, in a fairly competitive vertical as well.
Harry: I couldn’t agree with you more on the concerns on employee churn there. I think it’s about 1.3 years, the average stay for a sales rep in SF today. I do want to, Jerry, move into my favorite…
Jerry: That’s crazy. I did not know that. With us, just to give you a sense, it’s about three to five years, actually. It’s very different.
Harry: There you go, 1.3 versus 3 to 5. I do want to do, Jerry, 60 seconds faster. This is especially for you, Jerry, 60 seconds per statement. Are you ready?
Jerry: Yes sir.
Harry: Quality or quantity of logos in the early days?
Jerry: I would say quality, because people don’t need to see 50 logos. If you have five that are relevant to them, that’s all that matters.
Harry: Question from Mark Mullen, does your mother still power the retention science team with her home cooking? [laughs]
Jerry: Yes, my mother who, God bless her, when she comes to visit from Taiwan, she literally cooks up a whole meal for the entire company. She spends all morning cooking, and then my parents bring the food to the company. We serve lunch Tuesdays and Fridays.
Harry: I’m sorry, that has to be a case for company culture. Tell me a moment in your life that served as an inflection point, and really changed the way that you think.
Jerry: A very, very wise man told me that as a CEO, you need to learn how to sell. I’m more of a product guy, and actually never, never knew how to sell. Then so in the last couple of years, I’ve really learned about sales process, read every single blog post there is about selling, and certainly finding my way to get connected with Jason.
Convince him to invest in my company. That requires a little bit of salesmanship to sell to Mr. Lankan. I would say that’s definitely an inflection for my career to think about what I need to be to be a successful CEO.
Harry: If you successfully sold to Lankan, I think you can consider yourself a master of sales, Jerry. Tell me, when I say success in SaaS, who’s the embodiment of this to you?
Jerry: There’s so many great, great SaaS companies. I think probably Jeff from Twilio. I think that company is just, since they went IPO, there is a little bit of convincing the public market. I think now, it’s just a technology that is developer friendly, which we all know every company is engineer resources scarce.
Being able to scale a communication platform, and so successfully, especially in recent 12 months, and continuing to really have strong earning quarter‑over‑quarter, and having a great culture, I think that’s a really great one.
Another one is SendGrid. SendGrid is a partner of ours. We’ve been working with them for many years. I think that’s another great company that I aspire to operate at the same type of level of efficiency, leadership, and just quality of the company.
Harry: Final one, Jerry. What do you know now that you wish you’d known at the beginning? This could be at the beginning of your first company ‑‑ as you said, you’ve started three ‑‑ or the beginning of retention science. I’ll let you choose.
Jerry: Let’s go with the beginning of my first company. This would be back in 2009, actually. It’s been a 9, 10 years journey. I would say don’t be afraid of giving up ownership in your company to get capital in order to accelerate growth.
Your time is essence, and there’s always an opportunity cost, if you’re just growing something slowly. I always say to my team, the worst thing is a death by 1,000 papercuts. If you don’t have something that’s going to scale in the long term, just drop it, and then move onto the next thing.
All of us are smart. All of us have finite amount of time. I bootstrapped my first two businesses. I certainly wish that I wasn’t so stubborn, and not wanting to give up percentage of my company, because I thought I just needed to own everything.
Versus giving up the right amount of company absolutely allows you to move faster, save time, and ultimately achieve and get to success a little bit sooner, if you have something that is worth pursuing.
Harry: Jerry, as a VC, that makes me very happy to hear. I do want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. We’ve been speaking for so long, and it’s been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Jerry: I loved it, Harry. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Looking forward to listening to all your other podcasts.
Harry: What a guest, and such a special individual. I could not be more excited for the times ahead with retention science. If you would like to see more from us behind the scenes, you can see us on Instagram at hstebbings1996 with two Bs. It’d be fantastic to see you there.
As always, we so appreciate all your support. I cannot wait to bring you next week’s episode.