The age-old sales funnel has worked fine for decades…until now. Flaws are being exposed, and a new model is imminent. Why is the sales funnel alone, no longer an appropriate way of thinking about customers? What will emerge to supplement or replace it?
Join Hubspot CEO Brian Halligan and NEA’s Hilarie Koplow-McAdams to explore the evolution of the marketing and sales funnel you’ve been using for decades to generate traffic and convert and leads into customers.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW
Brian Halligan– CEO at Hubspot
Hilarie Koplow-McAdams – Venture Partner at NEA
Brian Halligan: Hi, I’m Brian Halligan, co-founder of HubSpot. Now, we started the company three years ago, and it’s gone exceptionally well. We’re very pleased with the progress. We have 90 employees. We have 1,500 customers. If you’re interested in HubSpot and you’re interested in inbound marketing, I would encourage you as a next step to check up the free trial on our site and see if it works for you.
Brian Halligan: Whether we all like it or not, trust in sales and marketing is at an all-time low. Who do they trust? They trust your customers. That’s the only people they trust these days. How did our best customers find us in the first place? I have been thinking a lot, a lot, about how do you grow your business in 2019, in 2020? I’ve come up with a whole new model for describing how you grow.
Speaker 2: Please Welcome, HubSpot CEO Brian Halligan and NEA Venture Partner Hilarie Koplow-McAdams.
Brian Halligan: Yeah.
Hilarie K.: My fantasy comes true. So that was an amazing walk down memory lane.
Brian Halligan: That was amazing.
Hilarie K.: Yeah. I hope we do a little bit more of that during this conversation. Let me introduce myself. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m a partner with NEA, but I spent the last 30 years as an operating leader in enterprise tech. Most recently President at New Relic and before that, I ran the distribution org at Salesforce. That’s where we met 11 years ago. It’s been a long time.
Hilarie K.: Brian, if you don’t know who Brian is, conceived of HubSpot in 2005. The original concept for the company was an inbound marketing platform. You’ve gone a long way. 500 million, 6 billion market cap and probably most importantly, 52,000 happy, delighted, intrigued customers. We’ll talk about that a lot, actually.
Hilarie K.: I think it’s always interesting for people to hear the founder’s story. Can you share how you and Dharmesh thought about starting the company?
Brian Halligan: Sure. We started the company back in 2006, so we’re obsessed like grandparents these days. There were two ahas that led to HubSpot, actually. I had an aha and Dharmesh had an aha. We were both in business school, and my aha was I was spending some time at a local venture capital firm helping with them just thinking about how do we grow these companies, saying, “What’s the plan? How are you going to grow the company?” I said, “Well, we’re going to buy a list and send a lot of emails. We’re going to hire tele-sales reps who are going to cold call. We’re going to do the big trade show, hire the PR firm,” yada, yada, yada.
Brian Halligan: The more I watched it, the more I became frustrated with the playbook. It just didn’t seem to work anymore. People were sick and tired of being marketed to. They’re good at blocking email out with spam protection and they’ve got caller ID and they’ve got ad blocker software. It’s just nearly impossible to reach humans with that traditional playbook. And so I thought marketing was broken.
Brian Halligan: Dharmesh’s aha was very different. He had blogged his way through business school, and I was watching his blog, and he had no people and no money. It was just him writing in between classes. And I was on Alexa. You guys probably remember the old Alexa before the current Alexa was you could track traffic. He had 100 times more traffic in his crap little blog than any of my wealthy venture backed start ups.
Brian Halligan: So I was like what’s happening here? He sort of described the world as there’s two sides of it. There’s a whole new way people are shopping and buying, and the way to reach them was what we started calling inbound marketing. How do you pull people in through SEO? How do you pull them through the blog sphere? How do you pull them through social? Versus outbound marketing. How do you … Instead of interrupting them with cold calls and emails and ads and stuff like that, how do you turn it on its head and go from outbound to inbound?
Brian Halligan: That’s really the kernel of the inbound philosophy. Then the next step was try to implement it. We had a hell of a time implementing, because we had to put in a concept management system, put in a blog, hire an SEO guru, hire a social media, blah, blah, blah, and then build the CRM. It just got super complicated. So HubSpot became a software platform that companies would use to transform the way they market from outbound to inbound. That’s sort of the initial genesis of it.
Hilarie K.: When you thought about it, what I thought was so interesting was very early on, you studied the marketing process and you declared the death of the funnel, the death of the traditional funnel. You came up with this concept of a flywheel. Can you talk about that a little bit more?
Brian Halligan: Yeah. The original vision was around inbound versus outbound. The current vision is funnel versus flywheel. I’ve been in sales and marketing positions my entire career, and I consider myself a funnel-ologist. I kind of grew up with the funnel. The more I studied the funnel, the more I think it’s broken. It just doesn’t work as a metaphor anymore to describe how people really buy and describe how modern organizations really scale.
Brian Halligan: There’s a couple things in particular I think are broken about the funnel. It’s rooted in modern society. I think one of the problems in modern society, nobody trusts anybody anymore. No one trusts the government. No one trusts religion. No one trusts media. No one trusts social media. You know who else they don’t trust? Marketers and sellers. The trust is an all-time low. So who do they trust? Well, they trust their friends and colleagues.
Brian Halligan: When I go and I talk to customers, I always go, “Why did you buy?” It used to be, “We loved your blog. We read your book. We heard you speak at a conference.” Nowadays, it’s, “No, no, no. I bought it. We used it in our last company. I liked it,” or, “My friend used it,” or, “My colleague used it.” So this idea that you get this funnel that starts in the top and visitors and leads and MQLs and comes out and pops a customer out the bottom feels antiquated. It’s more like a flywheel, where really the customers are your best channel to market. It’s not marketing is your best channel to market. It’s not sales. Your customers are the loudest voice in your potential customers’ ears.
Brian Halligan: So we use at HubSpot, we sort of ban the funnel, and we’ve embraced the flywheel as the metaphor by which we think about the business. Now, tracking word of mouth is a bear. Like we’re having a conversation now. It’s very hard to track that I recommended a product to you. Maybe I recommended that mug. Very hard to track that. There’s no URL involved, is there? Oh, you just have to know in your heart of hearts and talk to your customers and talk to your prospects, and you know it’s true that word of mouth is the most powerful channel.
Brian Halligan: So I like this idea of a flywheel and leaning into the flywheel. That’s how we designed our business, and it’s kind of transformed the way we run our business, how we think about our business, and I think it’s time we retire the old funnel and embrace a new way to grow.
Hilarie K.: I wanted to come back to that not being able to measure word of mouth, because you are a very analytical CEO. You think about the analytics behind the business. We’ve talked about it at length. Before we go there, I want to talk about the customer. People talk about B2B marketing. People talk about B2C marketing. Increasingly organizations talk about B2D marketing, to developers. But you’ve always coined this phrase “business to human marketing”, B2H. Yesterday, I guess people at SaaStr were talking about acquiring logos and there were some tweets about what’s a logo? It’s really a customer. My perspective is a logo is probably a term one uses to describe market share acquisition, but at the essence of any acquired customer, there is a human. So can you share your perspective on that, because I think it’s very important to how you designed the first experiences using the HubSpot product.
Brian Halligan: Yes. Okay. I want to tell you a little story about my not my morning routine this morning, but usually my morning routine. I wake up every morning in Boston on my Casper mattress. I love my Casper mattress. I turn over and I go on the thing and I put on my Warby Parker glasses. Sorry. My Madonna mic keeps falling off. I put on my Warby Parker glasses, and then I reach in my pocket. No, I reach over on the nightstand and I grab my iPhone and I put on Spotify and I listen to the Grateful Dead. I love the Grateful Dead. Clap if you like the Grateful Dead.
Hilarie K.: Yes.
Brian Halligan: I dance into the bathroom, and I shave with my Dollar Shave Club razor. Then I come out of the bathroom and I put on my Trunk Club outfit. What do you think of my outfit? Trunk Club.
Hilarie K.: Stage friends.
Brian Halligan: Nice. Then I hop in a Lyft and I go to work. Now what’s fascinating about those six companies to me is they’re all start ups like a lot of you. They’re all less than 10 years old. They’re all growing like an absolute weed, and I think it’s just absolutely fascinating. The thing that fascinates me the most about them is they’re all effectively selling the same exact product as their predecessor that they disrupted. The product is basically the same thing. It’s the same music. It’s the same car. It’s the same razor. It’s the same mattress, basically, but they’ve taken the friction out of it and they’ve really matched the way they go to market with the way modern humans actually want to buy stuff.
Brian Halligan: Now, those examples are all B2C, but this is very much coming to B2B. If you’re B2C, the train’s left the station. If you haven’t adopted one of these light touch business models, you are screwed, in my opinion. But in B2B, the train’s at the station ready to leave, and so you need to match your go to market by the way people buy.
Brian Halligan: Let me give you an example. I think inside of big companies the way they used to sell is you call high. You call CIO, you call CEO, you cold call in there and they answer the phone and you start the sales process there. Everything we buy, our CIO buys at HubSpot starts with a little project at the edge of the organization. Some developer’s tinkering with something. A couple of sales people, a couple of marketers, and then it ends up on the CIOs desk as, “Boy, we’re using this stuff. We’ve got to buy it.” It’s been turned on its head, and so you need to market and sell to humans and enable those humans to put it to work to you.
Brian Halligan: I’ll give you one more thought on that, Hilarie. I had a great professor in business school, and she had this mantra she banged over our head. She said, “Brian, if you want to build a big company some day, your product has got to be 10 times better than the competition.”
Hilarie K.: True.
Brian Halligan: It’s like written in my brain. I think it’s true, but I think it’s dated. Today, you want to build a great company today, you’ve got to have a customer experience that’s 10 times better than the competition. It turns out on the product side, it’s harder and harder to create a moat like competitive advantage. It’s so easy relatively today to build new technologies and build new functionality. That’s hard to create a head start that you can maintain. But a go to market advantage, business model advantage, that is much more sustainable.
Brian Halligan: So yes, product market fit, but obsess over go to market fit and build a real moat. Make this much about the business model when you go to market. That’s the sustainable advantage. That’s the big winners in the market today for people who really innovate on that side.
Hilarie K.: I completely agree, and I think we should go deep on this whole idea of a holistic customer experience that starts with marketing and ends in the use of the product. But maybe you can break down for the audience. In your mind, what does marketing do? What does sales do? What does product do? Talk about the ownership, and then we’ll keep going deeper, because I think this is good stuff.
Brian Halligan: Okay. I’m glad you like it. I think the role of marketing and sales and product has completely changed in the last couple of years. It’s turned upside down on its head. Marketing’s job is to get users of your product. Get the darn users cranked on the product. Sales’ job is not to cold call. Sales’ job is really how do I map those users who are using? How do I map that solution into the organization? Product’s job, they have the heaviest lift in the go to market these days. Product should have a quota inside your company. Product is what really convinces people to buy in most of these go to market models that you’re seeing today. Like you were at NewRelic. You’re on the board of Zendesk. HubSpot. Most of these new SaaS companies that are really growing quite fast, Shopify, have these models that start at the edge and come in. The marketing department is really getting those users. That sales department is turning those users into solution sale customers. Product really is trying to sell.
Brian Halligan: Now, product’s role has changed, too. In the SaaS world, I think things have changed a lot for product organization. The way I think about our product organization at HubSpot is the front end of HubSpot that people use every day, that should be consumer grade. The back end should be enterprise grade.
Hilarie K.: I love that.
Brian Halligan: So product needs to rethink their role. In the modern organization, you can’t just build a crappy old UI and sell it to the CIO anymore. That just doesn’t fly. You have to have a consumer like front end. It’s got to scale on the back end. It’s got to have open APIs. It’s got to be a really robust back end as well, and that’s easier said than done.
Hilarie K.: When you started the company, you had this website grader, where I could go in, and I did, and type in my URL and get a grade and then type in my competitor’s URL and get a grade. It was drop dead simple. I typed in the URL. I got lots of feedback. Tell us about the design concept. That’s really a great way for product and marketing to work together to engage a customer, prospective in my case.
Brian Halligan: Okay. I remember Annette, Hilarie. She was very nice. She gave me a meeting. She was running sales at SalesForce.com. Back when we first started HubSpot and we geeked out about this little product we had called Website Grader, she really liked it and we did, too. We still have it. Www.websitegrader.com. It’s sweet. You put in your URL, saastr.com, and you hit go and it goes through. It calls your site and looks at all kinds of stuff. It gives you a score on one to 100 on how good you are at inbound marketing. How many links into your site. Is your site set up well from an SEO perspective? How much social media mojo do you have? Is it more optimized and so forth and so on.
Brian Halligan: What was neat about that thing was one of my board members used to say you want to enable your potential customer to put in as little information as possible and get out as much value as possible, which is the opposite of most enterprise sales. All we asked for was URL. We gave them this treasure trove of information. That’s kind of the way the sales process started for us a lot. That was the first inkling for the customer like, “Ooh. I’ve got some pain here. My tooth hurts.” It’s a little like, “Ooh.” There’s a little bit of an ooh.
Brian Halligan: Then okay the call to action is subscribe to our blog or something like that. So they start reading our blogs. “Ooh. It hurts. There’s a lot of pain there. I didn’t know I had that tooth.” Then two or three weeks later, they say, “I’d like to talk. I’d like to use HubSpot.” Talk to the sales rep, and the sales rep’s got like the drill on the tooth, like, “Oh, you’ve got to fix that tooth.” It’s the pain factor. You’ve got to ensure them the pain they’ve got and expose it to them and expose the value of solving that pain. Then the sales rep relieves that pain. So sales and marketing was sort of this idea of a modern day pain factory. But that website grader was our first premium offer.
Brian Halligan: Now, more recently, we moved from marketing into … We have a sales hub and we have a CRM product. We’re going into CRM, and the elephant, the giant elephant in the middle of this room … I can barely see you out there … is this giant elephant called Salesforce.com. I have a lot of respect for Salesforce.com. We thought we’re going to cooperate and compete with them. They’re an investor of ours. We have a lot of respect for them. But when we go to market in the same market, we can’t just build a me too product. We need to build a lighter product, more consumer grade on the front end, enterprise grade on the back end. We need to have an innovative go to market model.
Brian Halligan: So when we built our CRM, we said, “Let’s make it free. Let’s make it free forever, and let’s get people started on that same product, like Slack and Dropbox and everyone else and sell it that way.” So we wanted to go to market with a lighter product and also a lighter go to market model. That sort of leads to HubSpot. You’ve got to match the way you go to market with the way people actually want to buy stuff today. That’s sort of at the core of modern go to market models.
Hilarie K.: Now I want to talk about market segmentation, because when we both started, when I was at Salesforce in the early days and you were building HubSpot, our customers kind of fit one size. Then we both became savvy to this idea of market segmentation. You’ve really thought a lot about market segmentation techniques, so a demarketized platform, anyone can access it, but their experience of working with HubSpot looks different. Describe that.
Brian Halligan: Yes. I remember having this conversation with you on the white board at Salesforce.com 10 years ago. The way you … I can tell you exactly how we do it at HubSpot. We have three segments at HubSpot. Small, which is two to 20 employees, medium, 20 to 200 employees, and large, 200 to 2,000 employees. Revenue is split about even across the three. What’s interesting about it is we’ve kind of … A couple of interesting things about it. We tilted our go to market model more and more over time. That small business segment, more and more of that business is done without ever talking to a sales rep.
Brian Halligan: A lot of it is a touchless model, and that’s scaling pretty well. Whereas in the enterprise side, the bigger accounts, they want to tangle with our legal department. They want to establish certain compliance things in place. They want to discount. They want a lot of special stuff. So we said we just want to go to a lighter go to market model. We said we wanted to lighten on the low end and actually make it heavier on the high end. We just want to match the go to market motion with that buyer. So we actually added touches. We added resources, and we took it away down here. That’s been serving us pretty well.
Brian Halligan: Now, what’s interesting about those segments, and this is what we talked about years ago, is the year end economics are very different on all three. The unit economics on the bottom, it costs us, and these are rough numbers, don’t tweet them, this isn’t forward looking statements, if you’re an investor in HubSpot. Don’t say blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Approximately with two to 20 employees, it’s about $1,000 to acquire a new customer and it’s about $5,000 in value we get over time from that.
Brian Halligan: In that mid market, the 20 to 200 employees, I’m going to guess, again. This is rough. It’s probably I’m guessing it’s $4,000 to acquire a customer. I haven’t looked at these numbers in a while, and $20,000 in total lifetime value. Then in the enterprise segment, it’s probably closer to $50,000 to acquire the customer, $250,000 lifetime value. And so the CAC, the cost to acquire, goes up quite a bit with the heavier touch, but so does that lifetime value.
Brian Halligan: What we’re trying to solve for is as big a return on that as possible. We’re not just trying to solve for total lifetime value. We’re not just trying to solve for CAC. We’re trying to solve for that return on investment. By having those numbers, our sales and marketing leaders are able to do asset allocation. Like how many reps are we going to add in small business versus enterprise this year? Where is the return better? That’s helped us quite a bit.
Hilarie K.: So three flywheels. One designed for each segment. Look at unit economics. Look at outcomes. Who owns that?
Brian Halligan: Yeah. The tricky part is no one really owns that.
Hilarie K.: Other than you, obviously.
Brian Halligan: Unfortunately, other than me. But really, everyone has got a number on their head and everyone has got a quota. Recently, we broke our product up into there’s a general manager of the marketing hub, general manager of sales hub, general manager of service hub, general manager of platform, so forth and so on. That’s helped a bit, but really, the way to go to market, and a motion where it’s inside of HubSpot is more than half our revenue is premium these days. So product and the growth team within product really owns a lot of that. The growth team in product and the growth team in marketing kind of are mushed together.
Hilarie K.: Does product have a quota you will lose-
Brian Halligan: Product has a quota. Yeah.
Hilarie K.: Okay. How’d that go over?
Brian Halligan: Tough at first, but I think they kind of like it. They feel accountable for it and they feel like they own the P&L. The interesting thing is the general managers. Like we have a general manager of our sales hub. His staff is small. He’s probably got 10 or 12 people, but it’s the platform side that has a lot of people that he’s accessing. So he’s a lobbyist for resources effectively. That’s worked out well.
Brian Halligan: But then you go to market. Like the front end, the marketers are getting visitors and then that growth team works together with them to turn those visitors into active users. Once you get a lot of active users, the sales folks have to get involved with that. Then they hand it off and the service folks are working and then product is underneath it all. The leverage inside of HubSpot, even today, all these years in, like I always thought it would be at some point the product will be built and the leverage is in sales and marketing. Leverage is still in product. We have a lot more product that we’ll build. We feel like we’re in the second inning on the product side, like changes we’re making on the … We make changes on the product side that improve the customer experience, our revenue accelerates. We see it almost immediately.
Hilarie K.: I love the clarity about the role of product. One of the questions that I want to ask you is about sales and marketing hand off. As companies scale and you’re going through this, certainly as you move into a platform and you have different functional pieces that you’re bringing to market, most people want to invest in specialization. They want to go big with specialization. I’m sure you hear this all the time. I get asked on boards, “When should we add specialists? When should we add telemarketers? When should we add?” What’s your philosophy?
Brian Halligan: You have a name for this up here.
Hilarie K.: I call this …
Brian Halligan: Baton pass.
Hilarie K.: … a baton pass.
Brian Halligan: A baton passing.
Hilarie K.: The customer experiences. They are the baton, and they’re being passed. If you’ve ever watched a great relay, people drop the batons, which is what we worry about.
Brian Halligan: Yes. I think our industry, all of us, have gone crazy with the three letter acronyms. The BDRs, the ICEs, the sales reps, the account managers, CSMs. By the time we’re done, we’ve touched seven people. You’ve handed that baton off seven times. Companies think that’s a really efficient use of time, and I think there’s a pendulum. I think our entire industry, including HubSpot, has swung too far on that in a way that they’re not solving for the customer. I kind of think of my dad. My dad was sick a long time ago, and he was very sick, and he had all these different doctors. He had doctors working on his heart and he had doctors working on … He had cancer at the time, and doctors looking at all kinds of stuff. But no doctor cared about him and was pulling it all together. The handoffs were very bad. That’s what it feels like to be a customer in most of our flywheels. All those handoffs were bad.
Brian Halligan: I think we need to swing back to a simpler world where there wasn’t all these handoffs and all these roles. A couple of roles. I think we need to swing way forward on automation. Today, 80% of the touches inside your business, inside your flywheel, are human based touches and handoffs. In the future, I think it should be more like 20%. Automation bots should do more and more of that work for your prospects and customers.
Brian Halligan: Your prospects and customers want to deal with automation bots. They don’t want to wait for an appointment with your sales rep. They want to be able to engage with your product 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I think automation, there’s a lot more automation to be had in the sales and marketing funnel. I think there’s a giant shift going on.
Brian Halligan: The other thing I will say is if you do, if you want to do that, you want to shift back to a simpler world, you don’t want all these three letter acronyms in your organization, you need to slightly tweak the profile of your hire. Today, your profile is I shaped. I’m going to hire a BDUR. They’re going to be very aggressive. They’re going to be a cold caller. They’re going to be an absolute shark, and they’re going to optimize the numbers. Then you’re going to hire a sales rep. It’s a different profile. They’re all kind of I shaped. I think in the future, we want these T shaped people, who are good at one thing but can do a lot of other things.
Hilarie K.: That’s your cross.
Brian Halligan: Yeah. But T shaped. Yeah. We’re leaning that way. I haven’t completely convinced HubSpot to date yet, but in certain parts of HubSpot, we’ve been convincing roles in needing on these T-shaped people.
Brian Halligan: I’ll give you an experience of where we just did this. We had an ISC organization. That ISC organization was the organization that responded to chats on the website and email and phone calls, of which of both there’s a lot. Then we had a coaching organization. What the coaching organization did is if you’re a free CRM user, you’re starting to use our CRM. You’re in a company that’s medium or large size. They’d be there to coach you on how to use it, to chat with you. It’s also very effective. We combined those two organizations, and these people were sort of inbound specialists. They were a little salesy. These people more technical. We’re combining those two organizations to skip a hand off. Those people are very much a T-shaped organization. I like that new team a lot.
Hilarie K.: I love that concept. I heard a leader of one of the biggest software companies in the world talk about the fact that he gave his directs Visa cards and told them to sign up for their service. It raised a lot of consciousness, shall we say. So that’s what you’re really describing, that people look across and then they walk in the customer’s shoes and they really understand what the human experience feels like and often it’s not well designed. I think that’s really novel that you’re saying is that you hold product responsible for as the digital technologies advance, product and marketing need to create this integrated experience that feels great to support the flywheel, which I love as a concept.
Hilarie K.: Maybe we go into our lightning round questions.
Brian Halligan: Let’s do it.
Hilarie K.: Okay. Biggest change as a CEO as your role has evolved. Take us through big concepts of where you were and where you are, who you admire.
Brian Halligan: Okay. Yes. I’m got to get this quote wrong, but my favorite person to follow on Twitter is Aaron Levy at Bots.
Hilarie K.: Entertaining.
Brian Halligan: He is entertaining. Do you have it written down? Can you read it? You look very organized over there.
Hilarie K.: I don’t.
Brian Halligan: Okay. The quote is basically like your success in the early days of your start up is largely a function of you getting very good at doing all of the jobs that need to be done. The success for you in a scale as a founder is to get really good at doing none of those jobs. Is getting out of the way of everyone, letting people specialize and do a really good job inside that organization. That very much has been the journey for me.
Brian Halligan: As an entrepreneur, most entrepreneurs are control freaks. We like to make a lot of decisions, control the boundaries of those decisions. The greatest strength really as an entrepreneur is that you’re a control freak, but that turns into Kryptonite in a scale up. Your greatest strength turns into your greatest weakness. So for me, it’s been trying to back out of the day-to-day, let other people develop their expertise, and work on different stuff that adds value in its own way. That’s frankly been a big struggle for me, but I think it’s key. It’s key in the journey from start up to scale up.
Hilarie K.: I still struggle with this. This is a wonderful …
Brian Halligan: Yeah.
Hilarie K.: Okay. CMO. Right brain, left brain?
Brian Halligan: Okay.
Hilarie K.: Quick.
Brian Halligan: Okay. Left brain.
Hilarie K.: Left brain?
Brian Halligan: I like left brain CMOs. I like really scalable stuff. I like to be able to do something and measure it, so I’m a big left brain.
Hilarie K.: Okay. That’s not your MIT background. That’s your belief.
Brian Halligan: Yes.
Hilarie K.: Favorite book.
Brian Halligan: My favorite book? Oh. It’s Marketing Lessons From The Grateful Dead. Clap if you’ve read Marketing Lessons From The Grateful Dead.
Hilarie K.: Yeah. Oh, we have some fans.
Brian Halligan: I think there were 10 people in the whole world that read it. It was a book I wrote, and Jerry Garcia. He was a brilliant musician and a brilliant marketer. If you want to learn how the Grateful Dead broke all the rules and rethought the go to market model, read Marketing Lessons From The Grateful Dead. Buy it for Christmas for all your friends and relatives. Buy it in triplicate.
Hilarie K.: Here’s what I heard. We’re going to wrap it up. It’s a human experience in a flywheel and while it’s a digital experience, it has to touch my heart.
Brian Halligan: I like that.
Hilarie K.: Yeah. Thank you, Brian.
Brian Halligan: Thank you. Thanks.
Hilarie K.: And thank you.